Just Too Accurate

I was parousing various blogs this morning, and I happened to come across the fact that the Southern Poverty Law Center has now labeled Gary DeMar’s ministry American Vision as a “hate group.” Apparently, Gary got a call from NPR to come on one of their shows, and defend himself against these charges [for the record, Gary says he does not appear on tax funded shows].

However, I was totally unprepared for what I saw when I clicked on the link to read the article. Go ahead, click on this link, and look at the cartoon at the top of the article. Why is it that cartoonists can always seem to make points extremely clear with their art that others can only make semi clear with words?


7 Responses to “Just Too Accurate”

  1. Jason Stumpner Says:

    I admire the SPLC. They gather information about the activities of extremist groups. Religious as well as racial. There’s is where I get much of my information about the islamists, as well as groups like the Nation of Islam, for example. Ironicly enough, the problem certain people are having with them is that they are consistant. Because they not only address the Ku Klux Klan, but also the New Black Panther Party. And they oppose not only islamists, but dominionists as well. So when blacks whine about how the Klan wants to endanger there civil rights, and the christians complain about how the islamists threaten there freedom, the SPLC responds back with “well you too”.

  2. otrmin Says:


    Jason, the SPLC is about as extremist as you can get. I would call them a leftist-extremest group. If you get your information from them, then it is no wonder that your take on theonomy is so biased. Even folks such as Dr. James White, John Frame, my professor, Dr Willem VanGemeren, R.C. Sproul, my pentatuch professor Dr. Richard Averbeck, Dr. Robert Reymond, and many others in the Christian community recognize theonomy as a legitimate form of Christianity, and all of the afore mentioned people are not theonomists. With so many people in the Christian community accepting theonomy as legitimate, it is laughable to see a fringe group like this saying what they do about Gary DeMar. That is why I am glad to see terms like “fundamentalist liberals” starting to creep into the vocabulary of the society.

    God Bless,

  3. Jason Stumpner Says:

    What’s the difference between theonomy and theocracy then? Here is what Wikipedia has to say about each. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy The way I see it is that dominionism/christian reconstructionism is the clericalist form of Christianity, just as islamism is to Islam, and hindutva is to Hinduism. And I also do not think that a country would necessarily have to be ruled by a cleric to be theocratic either, as Mahmud Ahmedinijad, the President of Iran, is not a cleric. Yet the Islamic Republic of Iran is still regarded as being a theocracy. In fact, the only regime, in modern times, that was ruled directly by ecclesiastical authority, was Tibet under the Dalai Lama.

  4. otrmin Says:


    The difference is that theonomy believes in a jurisdictional separation between church and state while theocracy does not. Theonomy believes in two separate institutions, the church and the state. The institution of the state cannot say who is a member of the church, or who should receive the sacraments. Also, the church cannot make civil laws, nor can they execute the death penalty, require fines, etc. Each institution rules over a different areas, and some areas are the jurisdiction of the church, and some areas are the jurisdiction of the state.

    However, Theonomy says that, when both the church and the state make laws for their respective jurisdictions, they are both under obligation to rule by the law of God. Hence, theonomy presents one unique standard for two different organizations, whereas theocracy presents one unique standard for one organization.

    God Bless,

  5. Jason Stumpner Says:

    This reminds me of a discussion I had with a Roman Catholic, years ago, about the counter-reformation. He claimed that the Church was not to blame for burning “heretics” to death, because it was the State that carried out the punishment. The Church just condemned them. So therefore no blood was on there hands. I found such an arguement to be disgusting then, and I find it to be reprehensible now. I myself accept natural law as being the basis for all legal statutes. Theonomists, on the other hand, wish to replace the natural law with there oen religious ordinances. Similar to how islamists want to implement shariah, and hindutvists dharma. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shariah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma

  6. otrmin Says:


    First of all, your Roman Catholic correspondent was wrong, since there was no separation between church and state at this point in time.

    Secondly, you seem to think that there is something wrong with God commanding unrepentant homosexuals to be executed. Do you somehow think that is wrong? How can you then pray the 119th Psalm where the Psalmist says that he loves God’s law? How can you love something you think is morally wrong? To call God’s law immoral is to call God immoral. You may try to argue that the law concerning the death penalty for unrepentant homosexuals doesn’t apply today, but to argue that the law itself is immoral is unchristian, period.

    Hence, no one is responsible for anything here. God commands it, and his word is righteous by definition.

    Also, [again, I have to wonder if you have read any theonomists], theonomy rejects natural law. We don’t believe there is such a thing. We believe that only God’s word can provide us with the preconditions of intellegability of morality. Moral laws are universal, and how can a finite mind understand universal obligatory principles in a worldview where murder and death, for example, is nothing more than a chemical process? When one soda can falls on another, and it causes the soda to fall out and fizz, no one says “that’s immoral!” because it is only a chemical process. Hence, if that is all you have, there is no way to find a foundation for morality.

    Also, again to characterize theonomy with Shariah and Dharma is downright laughable, and shows what happens when the SPLC is where you are getting your information. We do not believe in using the sword to propogate theonomy. The only way theonomy would ever come about in America is if the American people vote it into power. That is why we are having this discussion on this forum, rather than invading Washington, and pointing a gun at the members of congress and saying, “You will do what we say.” We reason with people, and we use the word of God as our sword, not the end of a gun.

    God Bless,

  7. Jason Stumpner Says:

    I know that theonomists reject natural law, which is one of the ways I differ from them. Also not all islamists try to come to power by armed force either. The Justice and Developement Party of Turkey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_(Turkey) is considered to be islamist, yet they just take part in elections. And in closing, what I think about Old Testament law is irrelevant. I think that it is fine for all those who choose to live by it. I just feel that it’s wrong to force it upon those who have not accepted Jesus as Lord. Since I believe in free will, and also in the “two kingdom” theology of the anabaptists. Plus I myself am an apostate. So I would not concern myself with whether or not theonomy is doctrinely correct. I sincerly hope though that dominion theology is not inherently a necessary part of Christianity. I know that many christians, even conservative ones, disagree with christian reconstructionism.

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